Israelis never were interested in Peace
Their ardent declarations to the contrary notwithstanding.
Indeed, the Times Online article "Why won't the Israelis give peace a chance?" (cited here) was written by Amoz Oz. He is the same Israeli intellectual, who despite being considered by some "the Israeli peace camp incorporated," fully supported the most recent Israeli war against Lebanon.
Only when it was clear that Israel was losing, did he start to oppose it.
But Amos Oz is not much different from Uri Avnery, who opposed the war from the start, but also believes that Israel is only doing the bidding of the United States and not the other way around.
My guess is that both Oz and Avnery, and Noam Chomsky for that matter, sincerely believe this.
However, to accept that the Israeli government, not the US government, is deliberately sacrificing the safety of the Israeli Jewish population, would end their last remnant of trust in Zionism.
Historic documents, like the diaries of earlier Israeli presidents, prove that the real powers within Israel never were interested in a negotiated peace with their neighbors.
They also prove that those leaders deliberately provoked violence from Palestinians and other Arab neighbours against their own population to keep the Israeli society a militaristic one.
The real reason why most Israelis and Diaspora Jews close their eyes to these facts might be the traditional unconditional loyalty Jewish people show towards their community and their leaders.
Christians and Muslims, as members of universalist religions, have been taught that loyalty must be foremost towards God and righteous (divine) principles. Loyalty must be earned and should never be given blindly - no matter what.
Jews, as members of a tribal religion, have been taught that loyalty towards ones own community transcends any principles.
While criticism inside - of leaders and members of the community - is allowed, every one of them must be defended against the outside world - no matter what. And while community members might make "mistakes", they are still of more value than any outsiders.
When the "mistakes" made become so big that they can no longer be denied or are exposed to the outside world, then any admissions must be coupled with blaming outside forces.
Despite losing the religious justification, secular Zionist Jews still cling to this tradition of unconditional loyalty, not realizing that this blind loyalty might be in part to blame for historic anti-Jewish persecution.
If one doesn´t distance oneself from thugs one is identified with them.
Some Jewish communities and individuals in the tradition of Moses Mendelsson, (a German-Jewish reformer, a friend of the German playright and philosopher Lessing and the model for Lessings "Nathan, the Wise") strive to embody universal principles in their religious believes.
Those Jews oppose Zionism and support fully the rights of the Palestinians and the neighbouring countries.
But for now, those reformers are still a minority
"Jews, as members of a tribal religion, have been taught that loyality towards ones own community transcends any principles."
That's funny, I was never taught that. True enough, I consider other Jews to be like my distant family, and I do what is necessary to help my family before I help people who have little relation to me. But it is quite a stretch to go from there to say that my loyalty to my family and my people comes before my own morals. If, for example, while serving in the IDF I were asked to shoot a Palestinian child deliberately (which, as far as I know, does not happen) I would most certainly refuse such an order, even if it came from one of my "tribe" as you put it.
"...believes that Israel is only doing the bidding of the United States and not the other way around."
That's because it is. Zionism was born, and remains to this day, a secular ideology. I couldn't care less if we have all of Eretz Israel, or just what we have now. Labor, Kadima, and even much of Likkud are completely secular parties which do not have some sort of hidden agenda to obtain all the land of the former kingdom of Israel. I ask myself, then, what in the world is stopping Israel from negotiating with Syria? The answer is undoubtedly America. If it were up to me, every cent of your American tax money, which makes up only 1% of Israel's economy, would stay in America. We don't want your money, and we don't want to be an extension of America in the Middle-East. We want to live in peace with our neighbours, without you pushing your imperialist oil-crusades down our throats.
"Despite losing the religious justification, secular Zionist Jews still cling to this tradition of unconditional loyality, not realizing that this blind loyality might be in part to blame for historic anti-Jewish persecution."
How many times did your parents drop you on your head? By the sound of this paragraph, a hell of a lot. Zionism is only 200 years old, so I have NO idea how you are going to manage to blame it for the persecution of Jews throughout history.
Are there any who aren't?
Though, I would characterize it as arrogant. But, why nit-pick?
You seem like a fairly reasonable fellow/gal - at least you claim to have a conscience.
But, you appear to be woefully misinformed about you isreali brethren who ROUTINELY shoot children, in the head, in fact - sometimes several times to make sure that they're dead!
As such, your 'pride' is little more than a crass display of utter contempt for humanity.
So, before you defend Zionism and your belligerent little 'IDF' - Get a CLUE about reality.
(Pride, you know, is a sin.)
The Israel-as-tool-of-Texan-imperialsts story fails to account for the massive efforts of the lobby here in the states. Why waste all that money and effort?
And was it CIA manipulation of Israeli voting machines that elected men like Ariel Sharon? You know, the guy who said --
"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of [the Palestinians] ... We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."
My oh my, that sure was a feisty response!
You will find such individuals in EVERY army in the world. Hatred is not an exclusively Israeli emotion, and when your friends and family are under constant threat of rockets or terror attacks, hatred is not at all an unexpected byproduct. Note that I am most certainly not attempting to justify the killing of innocent people, and if it were up to me, those who were caught doing so (on purpose) would spend the rest of their lives in prison.
On the other hand, I would like to point out that you are quite quick to jump to conclusions which are, needless to say, supported by no evidence other than your contempt of Israel. I see no reason why I should believe the Palestinian account of what happened any more than I should believe the Israeli one. After all, the Palestinians have been caught red handed several times staging so-called Israeli massacres.
"(Pride, you know, is a sin.)"
No, not really. One must find a balance between pride and humility.
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=550&o=2535
"The Israel-as-tool-of-Texan-imperialsts story fails to account for the massive efforts of the lobby here in the states. Why waste all that money and effort?"
Find me a government or major political body in the world that doesn't want money. The fact that it is hurting and corrupting Israel makes no difference to a politician, who is only interested in having a nice sum of money in his Swiss bank account.
"And was it CIA manipulation of Israeli voting machines that elected men like Ariel Sharon? You know, the guy who said..."
ANY Prime Minister who is elected can be bought. After all, isn't that exactly what you are claiming RE Israeli control of America?
"No, not really."
Yes, really. At least in traditional Christian theology, where for a thousand years pride has been taught to be not just a mortal sin, but the FIRST and most pernicious one. But you're right, if I asked a rabbi I would get a very different answer. (It's an interesting question of how far theological differences like this still persist in radically different perspectives in today's secularized world.)
But back to the subject: No one who knows anything about the lifelong career of Ariel "Butcher of Beirut" Sharon could dare suggest that his brutal policies were the result of being bribed by "Western imperialists". They would have to have gotten to him at a very early age.
But you've managed to evade the central point. There's the little issue of the settlements that needs explaining if you're going to argue that Israel has ever desired peace.
By the way, when surveys indicate that the Israeli people look favorably on the idea of "transferring" their Arab population, when a racist like Avigdor Lieberman is made a Minister with no outcry, should we regard this too as corruption by American imperialists?
"After all, the Palestinians have been caught red handed several times staging so-called Israeli massacres."
By all means share these with us. I'm always interested in learning new things about the region. Did you hear the one about the photograph with the darkened smoke? Shocking.
Yes, really. At least in traditional Christian theology..."
Quite right. I assumed that since your comment was directed at me you were referring to the Jewish interpretation.
"But back to the subject: No one who knows anything about the lifelong career of Ariel "Butcher of Beirut" Sharon could dare suggest that his brutal policies were the result of being bribed by "Western imperialists". They would have to have gotten to him at a very early age."
I have no doubt that since the early seventies, there has not been a single Israeli leader not under the thumb of America. As to Sharon's brutal policies, perhaps you are right, or perhaps not. It is not something I can be sure of, especially not with my limited knowledge.
"But you've managed to evade the central point. There's the little issue of the settlements that needs explaining if you're going to argue that Israel has ever desired peace."
Tell me when the settlements appeared. By this time, how many wars had the Arabs initiated against Israel?
You have to be realistic. Israelis are people too, and when you and your family are killed over and over again from 1920 until 1970 by the same Arabs, who do not even PRETEND to desire peace, you begin to search for more extreme solutions to your problem. This should also answer your question about the racist Lieberman. I'm not sure just how "racist" a population exchange is - there have been a fair few of them this century with little or no international outcry. The fact is that most Israeli arabs are not loyal to the state in which they live - in fact, most would be glad to see it destroyed.
"By all means share these with us. I'm always interested in learning new things about the region. Did you hear the one about the photograph with the darkened smoke? Shocking."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTX3CZqDyOA
Let's start there.
"Does this look like a war zone?"
Ah, well no - the Palestinians call it "home" actually.
Your 60 minutes journos are even bigger pigs than the ones in my neck of the woods, Proud Zionist Person. And from what I've learned about Israelis in the last year, this doesn't surprise me.
The story reminded my of the brief glimpse I once got of the relationship between forest conservationists and the media. Lacking any real power, they bend the rules, and overuse one of the few weapons they possess. Not that I buy half of the interpretations made in the 60 minutes piece. How sad it is - a disgrace to journalism reporting on the misuse of the media! And how rich it is - the masters of spin and media manipulation moaning about the shoddy work of amateurs!
Proud Zionist, you got some stuff of yours backwards, so let me help you out:
It is the Arabs and their families who have been killed by Zionist Israelis over and over again from 1920 to current time. Perhaps the names and faces have changed on some of these monster demons but their crimes are the same idea, same tactics, and for the same cause:
To cause as much bloodshed of the Arab mothers and children in exchange for more stolen Arab land and resources.
That is usually how it works, same formula of hate and greed = Zionism.
And because of such atrocities committed against the Arab children and their families, then it is no wonder the suicide bombings started occurring after the OSLO Peace process, which failed to do anything for the Palestinians, and once again the world community was silent, as Israel pummeled more hospitals, education centres, houses, and lives – for no good reason but for greed and hatred.
The Arabs have hardly INITIATED wars, however the isaeli Zionists have continually, perpetually, invaded territory that didn’t belong to them, stealing land, and murdering Palestinian people. What are these people to do? Just take your shit? You expect these people to not stand up and fight back? That's right, I said FIGHT BACK!
Tell me…..
Would any people or other country in this whole wide world put up with the barbaric and demonic shit of Israel that the Palestinians and Lebanese have to suffer through?
You dare to link a youtube video?
Your tribe purchased YouTube so forget it. That’s like giving us a bowl of shit and calling it chocolate ice cream.
NO SALE!
"Proud Zionist, you got some stuff of yours backwards, so let me help you out:"
Great, I'm always happy to learn new things.
"It is the Arabs and their families who have been killed by Zionist Israelis over and over again from 1920 to current time..."
I do love unfounded accusations. They make for good bedtime stories, but unfortunately, not for good debating material. History speaks for itself, and your lies cannot erase it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
Read. There were no "Jewish terrorists" at this time, so what was preventing the peaceful and loving Palestinians from living peacefully with us then? You're in such denial that you can't even see the truth beating away at you.
"To cause as much bloodshed of the Arab mothers and children in exchange for more stolen Arab land and resources.
That is usually how it works, same formula of hate and greed = Zionism. "
Really? Because I always thought that Zionism was simply a form of Jewish nationalism that advocated a Jewish homeland in Palestine, but you know, making up spooky and evil sounding sentences and attrbuting them to Zionism does seem to be an effective propaganda tool.
"And because of such atrocities committed against the Arab children and their families, then it is no wonder the suicide bombings started occurring after the OSLO Peace process, which failed to do anything for the Palestinians, and once again the world community was silent, as Israel pummeled more hospitals, education centres, houses, and lives – for no good reason but for greed and hatred."
Wow, that's nice. Too bad it's completely false. Israel met EVERY requirement set out by the Oslo accords. The Palestinians increased terror attacks, destryoed Jewish holy sites, and continued to call for the destruction of Israel in the PLO charter. You live in a dream world, which might be nice for you, but makes it very difficult for me. Debating with someone who is dillusional is not a simple task, but I will try my best.
"The Arabs have hardly INITIATED wars, however the isaeli Zionists have continually, perpetually, invaded territory that didn’t belong to them, stealing land, and murdering"
Uhhhhhhuh... Hardly initiated wars... No other country has had as many wars waged against it in such a short time-span as Israel. Further proof of your inability to accept the reality staring you in the face.
"Would any people or other country in this whole wide world put up with the barbaric and demonic shit of Israel that the Palestinians and Lebanese have to suffer through?"
The Palestinians and Lebanese need not sufer, if they can control themselves and refrain from murdering Jews. I know it's difficult for them, since even when they were not killing us they were treating us as second class Dhimmi filth in their countries. I guess old habits die hard, huh?
"You dare to link a youtube video?
Your tribe purchased YouTube so forget it. That’s like giving us a bowl of shit and calling it chocolate ice cream.
NO SALE!"
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. My "tribe" (you do realise you sound like quite the asshole, right?) are brainwashing the world.... Through youtube. You would think that our total control over the media would be enough, but hey, looks like I was wrong. Tell me, if "my tribe" own YouTube, and the content is all extremely biased in favour of Israel, why are your bullshit conspiracy theories allowed on there? I've seen some of those "Mossad did 9/11" conspiracies with thousands of views. Are you telling me that we're smart enough to have total control over the world economy and media, and not remove a video accusing us of carrying out 9/11 on a site that we apparently own?
Do yourself a favour and just give up. You make no sense at all. You havent shown ANY evidence to support the insanity that you are spouting off in every direction, and you simply dismiss all of the evidence which is presented against you as "Zionist propaganda."
This is such a joke...
That silly YouTube production that ProudJew linked to got me wondering just what Abe Foxman would say if the same tricks were applied to, say, the subject of the Holocaust. And by coincidence, this just came out today--
Remember those two ambulances shot up by Israel during the summer rampage in Lebanaon? Remember how the hasbara troops tried to spread the spin that it was staged--because "the most moral army in the world" would never do such a thing? Well it turns out that Human Rights Watch (not some Zio-nut in Crown Heights) has concluded its investigation of the incident. Guess what they found?
http://hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/qana1206/
I wonder if this Ze'ev (Vladimir) Jabotinsky chap had a drop of disputed territory blood in him?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Jabotinsky
I'm a little bit of a historical materialist this way.
***
The head swoons with the news about the veracity of the Lebanese ambulance story. Thank God the guy who lost his leg never felt a thing - can you imagine staying conscious through such an event? More than a thousand Lebanese killed in a month, over the taking prisoner of two soldiers. Now that's what I call terrorism. Or murder actually - it was just terrorism for everyone who *didn't* die in the attacks.
I of course believed the reports that it was a hoax - my foriegn minister even said it was so.
To Ellendra:
Your "Not Buying it , Zionist!" comment here is excellent and 100% accurate!
To ProudJewishZionist:
You're not fooling anyone who visits this website. I know you believe we goyim are mindless subhumans, but one of these days you're going to come in contact with reality. You think your shit doesn't stink, but believe me, it DOES!
... and assume that he truly believes what he says, and is not lying for polemical reasons, or is not defending the indefensible because of his Zionist loyalties.
Most Israeli Jews are taught from an early age about the irrational hatred they suffer from the Goyim, the non-Jews, and how Jews have suffered for centuries, leading to the Holocaust, and how when they finally built their own nation they still didn't get their peace, as the damn Arab Jew-haters have been attacking since the 1920s. They have a utopian view of Israel as their saviour, their messiah in a sense, their safety net, and that they must defend it against the hate-filled hordes. And this belief blinds them to what actually happened in creating modern 'Israel', and makes them deny any legitimate grievances any Arabs may have.
ProudJewishZionist, why, if what you claim is true, did the Arabs only start attacking the Jews in Palestine in the 1920s? Why not in the 1840s? Or the 1690s? There's been an established Jewish community living in Palestine for centuries. They were allowed back from exile when the Arabs took Palestine from the Byzantines in the 700s, kicked out by the Crusades, and allowed back in when the Arabs retook Palestine from the Crusaders. Why only in the 1920s did the Arabs start attacking Jews in Palestine, assuming what you say is correct?
Well, don't trust pro-Arab, anti-Zionist sources. Why don't we give you something from some Zionists themselves. These leaders of the Zionist movement fed the anti-Arab propaganda to the Jewish masses, but in private, they were very honest. Here's some of the reasons why Palestinians have been fighting Israel:
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
So, ProudJewishZionist, the truth is the Arabs don't care if you're Jewish, Buddhist, or Martian, they fight for what they see as a great injustice perpetrated against them.
I have been away for the holidays so now I will be very slow catching up.
I don't know if you are still around zionist filth, but eat this:
Your YouTube is slowly dismantling videos on the true colors of "israel". So while, there may be some decent videos against your tribe, I'm sure its because they haven't gotten to them yet.
As for that Wikepedia nonsense.....as usual, the typical zionist distortion and facts. I don't trust wikepedia when it comes to facts about the Middle East. Zionist creepy crawlies go in the edits and change facts, numbers, dates, and so on........and so therefore, I do not need to read zionist fables and tall stories.....been there, done that! It's the same dull drip your tribe has stupid, weak north americans believing.
MonkeyZerg brought up valuable information about the treatment of Arabs of Jews - the real Jews, as opposed the horrific treatment of the Lebanese and Palestinians done by bastard european jews aka zionists, when they began their invasion and slaughter of Palestine in the 30s and on.
And what you say here is utter, total lying filth:
"The Palestinians and Lebanese need not sufer, if they can control themselves and refrain from murdering Jews. I know it's difficult for them, since even when they were not killing us they were treating us as second class Dhimmi filth in their countries. I guess old habits die hard, huh?"
It's the other way around, my snotty little pebble head. "israel" today does not need to suffer, as it only needs to keep its mangy claws of the Palestinians and Lebanese people. Your zionist IOF needs to stop murdering,( ethnically cleansing) innocent children, women, and men, as well as the elderly. Your zionist israeli govenrment and terrorist military need to stop treating Arabs like they are animals and that their lives are worth zero.
If your bastard creation of "israel" does not heed my advice, and other's advice like mine, then "israel" has only itself to blame for its demise - and no one else.