Finally - A Good Question for Israelis
Finally an interesting question. My personal opinion is that there is no way Israel can on the long run deal with the demographics and the growing surrounding hostility. Israel has become a big fortress and military base. It is not a country like we all have. It is also a financial hoover that lives off others. Israelis live surrounded by a wall. With every passing day, Israelis live less securely than before. Palestinian as well as Israeli demographics are not in their favor of Israel. Young generation Israelis are not interested in Zionism as was the generation of Menachim Begin, Moshe Dayab, Rabin, Peres, Sharon etc...
We have to however note that what Israel is doing today is getting rid of the Palestinians. Ideally Israel would like the Palestinians to simply be absorbed by the surrounding Arab states especially Lebanon. Nahr el Bared refugee camp turned out to be on land that the US seems to want for something else... and we know what happened there..
I wonder if Israel had imagined that there would me 4.1 million Iraqi refugees today looking also for lodging other that the million or 2 who are inside Iraq and are to poor to leave. now we have about 10 million refugees all in all looking for homes. More that all of Israel with its Arab community. If only those 10 million could just stamped those Israelis and rid the world of them:)
A Question for Israelis
By William Pfaff
Date October 19, 2007
http://www.williampfaff.com/article.php?storyid=262
Paris, October 18, 2007 – Is it possible to say something new about the present Israel-Palestinian stalemate? Let me try, by raising a question that seems completely, even resolutely, ignored -- or repressed, in its Freudian signification – in Israeli appreciations of the situation.
The question is this: suppose that Israel is given all that its government seems to want. No Palestinian state, Israel continues colonization, annexing more of the Palestinian territories, or even all of them.
What then? What will happen to the Palestinians in the years ahead? What would the land of Israel, and what now are the Palestinian territories, look like in 50 years?
A former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Dore Gold, recently published a well-argued defense of Israel’s position with respect to the Palestinians. |The International Herald Tribune, October 17, 2007.]
He wrote in response to the recent book by John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, attacking the influence of the U.S. Israel lobby on American foreign policy and political life.
He wrote that “Israelis gave peace a chance and paid a huge price; they agreed in the 1993 Oslo Accords to bringing Yasser Arafat and his exile leadership from Tunis to the West Bank and Gaza, and in return got a spate of suicide bombing attacks that emanated from the very cities Israel turned over to the PLO.
He continued: “Over a thousand Israelis were killed. In 2005, Israel nonetheless unilaterally pulled out of the Gaxa Strip, hoping that the Palestinians and the international community would help create a ‘Dubai on the Mediterranean.’ Instead, in early 2006 Hamas won the Palestinian elections. It intensified the rocket attacks on southern Israel and Gaza came to resemble Mogadishu. Why should Israel feel a moral burden under these circumstances.”
Fine. Whatever the merits of the argument – and the Palestinians would make a different one -- it deals with the past. The question is what is to be done now. Forming a new state for the Palestinians is the solution that is being attempted. This is why Condoleezza Rice has made seven visits to Israel this year. She wishes to bring the parties to a meeting in Annapolis, Maryland, next month, to advance the creation of such a state.
It is hard to expect much to result from this initiative, since Israel gives no evidence of wishing to see progress in the matter. The government’s announcement of still another seizure of Palestinian land near Jerusalem a few days before Secretary Rice’s arrival seemed a deliberate slap in her face.
One must ask the Israeli government the following question. Suppose, as is probable, that no American administration, now or later, puts any obstacle in the way of whatever you want to do. Suppose there were no effective international pressures on you to stop colonization and land seizures. Suppose that no Palestinian state is created. What are you going to do about the Palestinians?
Israel’s present treatment of the Palestinian population has caused the UN’s representative on the so-called “Quartet” to recommend to UN Headquarters that the UN withdraw from that body (irrelevant as the Quartet has proven). There are calls in Europe for the EU to withdraw from the Quartet as well, for the same reason.
A former President of the United States, Jimmy Carter, greatly respected for his humanitarian work and his freedom from the intolerant partisanship of current American politics, has been moved to write a book protesting what he describes as the conditions of “apartheid” in which Israel holds the Palestinians.
American opinion is shifting. The Walt-Mearsheimer book had had an effect. The deliberate Israeli sinking of the USS Liberty in 1967 has been taken up again in the mainstream press. War in Iraq and the possibility of attack on Iran has increased popular concern about Israeli influence on American policy.
Israeli human rights groups have denounced the treatment of the Palestinians, and recently have accused the Israeli authorities of trying to force Palestinians needing emergency medical help in Israeli hospitals to collaborate with Israel’s security services as a condition for treatment.
How long can this continue, even as a purely practical problem of physical control of a hostile population? The Palestinian population continues to grow more rapidly than Israel’s, and the average age grows younger, producing cohorts of young people who are politically radicalized, ready to turn again to violence to be free of these conditions of life. There are certain to be new Palestinian uprisings.
In international law, Israel is responsible for these people. What methods of permanent control does it envisage? There are some in Israel who hope their misery will force the Palestinians to abandon the territories. But to go where? In what conditions, and under what compulsion?
Is sustained control of a foreign population with such measures a politically supportable solution for the Israelis themselves, in view of the Jewish people’s own long experience of discrimination and suffering?
I am not asking this for polemical purposes. I am asking a practical question. What is Israel going to do with these people? The problem exists, and however convenient to ignore today, it will have to answered.
© Copyright 2007 by Tribune Media Services International. All Rights Reserved.
William Pfaff is the author of eight books on American foreign policy, international relations, and contemporary history, including books on utopian thought, romanticism and violence, nationalism, and the impact of the West on the non-Western world. His newspaper column, featured in The International Herald Tribune for more than a quarter-century, and his globally syndicated articles, have given him the widest international influence of any American commentator.
Congratulations, Cherifa. You have succeeded in angering me.
One of the reasons israel keeps getting away with its evil is that the world has a very short memory.
For example, we read about case after case of Israeli treachery. We learn that Abu Nidal was employed by Mossad (and in most cases was Mossad). We learn about endless israeli false flag operations that kill Jews plus everyone else -- operations that began in the 1940s with incidents like the King David Hotel bombing. We learn this, we learn that. It never ends.
And yet – despite all that -- this Pfaff idiot writes this…
A former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Dore Gold, recently published a well-argued defense of Israel’s position with respect to the Palestinians. He wrote that, “Israelis gave peace a chance and paid a huge price; they agreed in the 1993 Oslo Accords to bringing Yasser Arafat and his exile leadership from Tunis to the West Bank and Gaza, and in return got a spate of suicide bombing attacks that emanated from the very cities Israel turned over to the PLO.”
Amazing. The israeis have never wanted peace. They cannot live with peace. The genocide against Palestinians is all they have to live for. It’s part of the zionist character. If there is no “anti-Semitism,” the zionists will create it, since “anti-Semitism” is the only thing that keeps them together. That’s why israelis and the Bush regime call it a “peace process.” A “process” is perpetual. It never ends. It prevents the goal of peace from ever being achieved.
And yet we are supposed to believe that any israeli “peace deal” is genuine – such as the 1993 Oslo Accords, in which the israelis demanded that the Palestinians give up everything.
Pfaff calls this ridiculous lie a ”well-reasoned argument.”
Then he buys Gold’s lie that poor little israel pulled out of the Gaza strip as yet another “peace offering.” The truth is that the pullout was part of a Sharon plan to imprison Palestinians inside Gaza. This is a ”well-reasoned argument”?
Then Pfaff says Cuntoleeza Rice has been making visits to Palestine to talk about forming a “new state for the Palestinians.” A “new state” is another israeli trick. Does anyone believe the israelis would leave a “new state” alone? And what would this “new state” consist of? A small patch of land in Gaza? Why must the Palestinians accept a “new state” anyway? Why don’t Jews leave Palestine and establish a “new state” somewhere else, like Antarctica?
There is nothing new about Pfaff’s question. It comes down to this…what will the israelis do if they get everything they demand? The answer is that their genocide against Palestinians would continue.
I appreciate that Pfaff is trying to force answers out of Israelis, but must he kiss their asses to do so? Must he acknowledge that they have made ”well-reasoned arguments”?
When will the world drop its fear of this “shitty little state”? When will mankind stop feeling that in order to ask any questions, it must first grovel before zionists?
When Mearschiemer and Walt make speeches, they bow and scrape, and do everything possible to avoid zionist anger. What for? What does it get them? The zionists scream anyway.
The only solution that could ever work is for the current Israeli government to be totally dissolved and replaced by a Palestinian government. Then if the Palestinians choose to, they could let Jews remain in Palestine.
Personally I would like to see zionist israelis put onto a rocket ship and shot into the sun.
you succeeded in making me laugh! :)
"The only solution that could ever work is for the current Israeli government to be totally dissolved and replaced by a Palestinian government. Then if the Palestinians choose to, they could let Jews remain in Palestine.
Personally I would like to see zionist israelis put onto a rocket ship and shot into the sun."
I have to disagree though, any zionist will do. No need to limit ourselves to israelis.
---------------------------------------
"Money" has no value - people do.
WONDERFUL
LOL!!! I succeeded in angering you and you succeeded in making me laugh! I agree with everything you said. Pfaff is just another asshole (excuse my French)… but there are so many assholes nowadays writing about Palestine/Israel that it becomes impossible to stop at every sentence they write. Pfaffs ‘ language is of course miserably leading and ridiculous for those who know the situation. The greater questions of this articl are: What comes after Israel takes all Palestinian territory and the Golan Heights? What more can Israel want and what more can it realistically achieve?? Most importantly, how long are Americans going to finance Israel before it collapses… because it will collapse faced with the facts surrounding it. Even before a strategic change took place starting 1973 and was crowned with Hezbollah victory last year, Israel has not been in such good shape. Israel is completely artificially maintained… and will thus crumble. The question is how quickly or how slowly will it crumble and at what cost??
1. Israelis cannot match Arab demographics
2.Arab Israelis have proven that there support is to Palestine and not to foreign Israel. Did you notice the charges against Azmy Bishara and the hunt for Arab Christians since the 2006 defeat? Arab Israelis were cheering Hezbollah during the war, not Israel.
3.Emigration of Israel is higher than ever. No one in their right mind wants to raise a family there. If I am not mistaken there are at least 750 000.000 Israelis in the US.. not counting the ones in Canada and else where.
4.Immigration to Israel is costing Israel more and more. People are practically paid to go to Israel. They are offered a free house, free education for their kids and on.. all this of course paid for by the generous US tax-payer:) One could say that Israel is literally buying citizens and such citizens are not really very patriotic…
5.The ‘Refusnik’ movement is on the rise. Olmert’s very own son refuses to join the IDF. Today’s young Israelis are nothing like the Sharon, Begin or Dayan mafia. Today’s Israeli’s are spoiled brats… mama’s boys… They want their peace of mind and they want their meals to come on time in the middle of a battle. Today’s Israelis are not ardent Zionists as were their grandparents. They are not willing to sacrifice their lives and that of their family’s because the Jewish state keeps wanting more land and water. They want a comfortable life.. paid for by someone else... as they have been accustomed to. Currently the US is doing the fighting on behalf of the Jewish state. How long will the US sustain this?? How long will Americans accept fighting and financing? This is the question. As you well know, Israel’s battle is not only in Palestine. It is in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran… and keeps expanding drawing with it the US.
6.The Arab world and Middle East are not what they were in 1967… moreover, peace with Israel has proven not to work… and we the Arab people just don’t like Israel. As you said… and I totally agree, Israel cannot live in peace anyway. Signing peace treaties with its neighbors is a kiss of death for Israel. If you sign peace, then presumably you have to return the stolen land and water resources the way Sinai was returned. Israel would never do this again and would never give control of the water on which Israeli agriculture now depends back to the Arab… Let’s not to forget Israeli swimming pools of course noting that Palestinians mostly no longer even have water in their homes.
To summarize, Israel is already collapsing. What the US is doing is keeping Israel on “artificial respiration”. Zionists are fighting for the survival of the Zionist dream… but what are Americans fighting for?? Is the Zionist dream the same as the American dream?? This is what Zionists have tried (successfully) to persuade Americans. Did the crumbling of Israel have to mean the crumbling of the US??
Are you still mad at me??
PS. I love your Cuntoleeza name…lol! With your permission, I will quote you:)
Cherifa, I didn’t mean to say I was mad at you. I was mad at this Pfaff clown.
Even before a strategic change took place starting 1973 and was crowned with Hezbollah victory last year, Israel has not been in such good shape. Israel is completely artificially maintained… and will thus crumble. The question is how quickly or how slowly will it crumble and at what cost?
Yes, israel on life support now, like Ariel Sharon himself. The final collapse could be violent, or it could be an overnight thing, like the USSR.
You mentioned that israelis cannot match Arab demographics. Yes, this is an acute problem for them.
I once wrote a long comment at WUFYS in which I applied sociobiology to Palestine. I suggested that the Arab population in Palestine is expending not in spite of the genocide, but because if it.
Sociobiology says that when an entire people are oppressed, they tend to adopt reproductive strategies to maximize their chances of survival. Humans are not consciously aware of this, and the trend can only be seen statistically, but it is fairly consistent with all oppressed peoples (although there are occasional exceptions). When a group of people become targets of an organized campaign of genocide, they have more children. On the other hand, when people are oppressors, and become spoiled, they have less children, but devote more resources to each child.
There are many Muslim millionaires, even some billionaires, but Muslims as a whole are oppressed in Europe and North America. Hence their population is exploding, while people of European extraction (including Ashkenazi Jews) are declining. When israel is eliminated, and the oppression of Muslims ceases, Muslim population will level off.
Arab Israelis have proven that there support is to Palestine and not to foreign Israel. Did you notice the charges against Azmi Bishara and the hunt for Arab Christians since the 2006 defeat? Arab Israelis were cheering Hezbollah during the war, not Israel.
Yes, Bishara’s ultimate crime was that he was too friendly with Syria. Until I encountered you and Rhiannon, I did not realize how much Israelis hate Syrians. Regarding Christianity, Mordecai Vanunu says he continues to be vilified not so much because he revealed the israeli nuclear weapons program, but because he converted to Christianity.
Emigration of Israel is higher than ever. No one in their right mind wants to raise a family there. If I am not mistaken there are at least 750 000.000 Israelis in the US. not counting the ones in Canada and elsewhere.
It’s difficult to know how many Israelis are in the USA, because israelis keep their identity a secret, and have help from the U.S. government. Indeed, Michael Chertoff, the head of the Department of Homeland Insecurity, is an israeli citizen. This applies to all Jews, not just Israelis. When the U.S. Census Bureau comes around every ten years, Jews do not reveal themselves as Jews. Other groups don’t mind giving their religious affiliation, but Jews are secretive. Therefore when someone says, “Jews are only two percent of the U.S. population,” do not take that as fact. Nobody knows how many Jews are in the USA. Jews hide their numbers in order to move freely among the hated Goyim.
Immigration to Israel is costing Israel more and more. People are practically paid to go to Israel. They are offered a free house, free education for their kids, and so on – all paid for by U.S. taxpayers. One could say that Israel is literally buying citizens, and such citizens are not really very patriotic.
Yes, israelis are extending these offers to Jews all over the world, including India. There are major media campaigns in Australia to encourage Jews to move to new housing developments in the Negev Desert. This brings up the Bedouins, who are not “Palestinian” per se, but are just as persecuted. Jews destroy Bedouin villages to make room for housing developments. I like to think that when israel falls, Arabs will occupy all those Jewish houses.
The ‘Refusnik’ movement is on the rise. Olmert’s own son refuses to join the IDF.
I did not know this. Wow. I do know that rich families in Tel Aviv do not have to send their kids for the mandatory three years’ service in the Israeli military. Orthodox Jews don’t serve. Israelis that do serve in the military come from poor families. They are often uneducated thugs.
Today’s young Israelis are nothing like the Sharon, Begin or Dayan mafia. Today’s Israeli’s are spoiled brats… mama’s boys…
Hassan Nasrallah said this, and he was proven correct.
They want their meals to come on time in the middle of a battle. They are not ardent zionists as were their grandparents. They are not willing to sacrifice their lives and that of their family’s, simply because the Jewish state keeps wanting more land and water. They are accustomed to having a comfortable life paid for by someone else. Currently the US is doing the fighting on behalf of the Jewish state.
Yes, it’s only a matter of time before israel is gone. Iranians and Arabs will still be here when israel is gone.
How long will the US sustain this?? How long will Americans accept fighting and financing? This is the question.
It will continue until Americans truly begin to starve as a whole. When the people become a serious threat to the elite, the U.S. government will impose martial law. Eventually that will not be enough, and the U.S. elite will have to let israel go. The Israelis will probably explode a nuclear weapon in the USA for this “betrayal.” (I’m not joking.)
As you well know, Israel’s battle is not only in Palestine. It is in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran… and keeps expanding drawing with it the US.
israel’s battle is with most of the planet. That’s why israel cannot last. Israel was a bizarre aberration of the 20th century. It was an experiment that failed.
The Arab world and Middle East are not what they were in 1967… moreover, peace with Israel has proven not to work… and we the Arab people just don’t like Israel.
Nobody likes israel. Most educated Americans hate israel as much as Arabs do. In fact, unlike Arabs, a lot of Americans would like to see zionist Jews exterminated. They’d like to see a real holocaust.
As you said… and I totally agree, Israel cannot live in peace anyway. Signing peace treaties with its neighbors is a kiss of death for Israel.
zionists would disagree with you. They would point to their “peace agreements” with Egypt and Jordan. Of course, these “peace agreements” are strictly with the Egyptian and Jordanian governments. Average Egyptians and Jordanians despise israel. The Muslim Brotherhood came from Egypt.
If you sign peace, then presumably you have to return the stolen land and water resources the way Sinai was returned. Israel would never do this again and would never give control of the water on which Israeli agriculture now depends back to the Arab.
Yes, israel has nothing to offer except the land it occupies.
To summarize, Israel is already collapsing. What the US is doing is keeping Israel on “artificial respiration”. Zionists are fighting for the survival of the Zionist dream… but what are Americans fighting for?
Americans join the military for one reason only…to have a job. No “patriotism” is involved.
Is the Zionist dream the same as the American dream?
No. Zionism is an alien to Americans as it is to all other peoples.