I recently argued that the President should be understood as a Christian Zionist and that his efforts in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran are part of the Christian Zionist efforts to prepare the world for the return of Jesus Christ. As I put is, they think Jesus is coming, so they have to clean house.
Apparently, I hit a nerve. There's over 700 reads of that piece and the subsequent commentary. This is all well and good. The more we invest in our efforts to understand each other, the less we will feel that we need to resort to force to resolve our differences.
There were two themes in the responses that I wanted to go back to and discuss some more.
One was the idea that Bush may very well be a Christian Zionist, and they may very well be bad people, but Christian Zionists are not really Christians, and so we should not blame Christianity itself for whatever suffering Bush is causing.
The second idea was that my claim that Bush is best understood as a religious zealot and that his political policies are in the service of his religious beliefs diverts our attention from the real reason he's causing so much suffering. The real reason is not religious, but economic. There are powerful people behind Bush who want the U.S. to create a world where they have unlimited power to make as much money and wealth as they can without the possibility of any effective resistance.
Erlenda Thu 2007-01-18 21:23 stated the case for the first idea, as well as others, saying,
"...Bush most likely is not a real Christian. There are rumours that he has replaced the cross in the White House bedroom with a crown. There is also criticism by his base that he never visits any Church services, as other Presidents have done before him."
I suspect Erlenda would want to explain why these points relate to the question whether Bush is a Christian Zionist, or the further question whether he is a Christian at all. The President may not have any control over the minute details of White House decor. We don't know what it should mean that he has a cross or a crown on the walls of his bedroom. what ever he has, it seems to not establish what his religious beliefs might amount to.
We cannot make any inferences about what his beliefs are from the fact that noone has come forward to say they've seen him in Church. I hear that The Vice President refused to fly on public airlines for months before 9-11. I would suppose he'd say there was an inherent danger to people on planes from his mere presence. The President could argue that he has not wanted to endanger others who may be hurt if there would be an attenmpt on the President's life in Church.
We cannot say what his beliefs are just by noticing he does not go to Church.
There are people who have studied the President who believe he has strong religious beliefs.
Andrew Austin at PublicEye.org, wrote,
"...In the New York Times editorial, "God, Satan, and the Media" (3-4-03) Nicholas Kristof thinks he knows why Bush's religious messages have mesmerized so many people and failed to disturb others. According to Kristof, 46 percent of Americans are evangelical or born-again Christians...."
"...Any explanation for public support for a war in Iraq must account for the degree and character of religiosity in the United States. This includes Bush's religious views. "It's impossible to understand President Bush without acknowledging the centrality of his faith," writes Kristof. Bush's war efforts reflect a "messianic vision" in which his administration will "remake' the Middle East." This vision resonates with so many of Bush's followers, because the faithful likely agree with the President that he has been chosen by history - that is, by God - to democratize - Christianize? the Islamic world."
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalypticbush-2003/austin-providence.html
Given the evidence provided by Kristof and others, we cannot easily dismiss the claim that Bush is a Christian Zionist, if not a Christian of some sort.
I suspect that Erlenda wants to resist my claim that Bush is a Christian, or that Christian Zionists are really Christians, because Bush, et al, are responsible for so much suffering and on Erlenda's view of Christianity and the demands of Jesus, no practicing Christian would go along with what the President has been doing. She's thinking, Bush is not promoting peace, so Bush cannot be a Christian.
Actually, I think Bush and millions of others may have good reasons for thinking he is a Christian. They may also think that he is a Christian despite the fact he has lead the U.S. into invading several countries and killed hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children, who live there. They may believe that peace is based on people agreeing with certain "truths," involving the claim that Jesus is the son of God and the source of all knowledge and values. Anyone who would disagree with this claim cannot act from any knowledge or values. Their beliefs are no more than opinions, their morals no more than prejudices. The problem with such people, according to this understanding of Christianity, is that they are unreasonable and a danger to themselves and to others. As the President said of those who caused the 9-11 murders, "you are either with us (the forces of goodness), or you are with the terrorists."
Peace can only come when the Islamic world agrees to accept the basis of all truth and values, the i.e., the Christian faith, or they are brought to judgement by Jesus himself.
Erlenda disputes the claim that Christian Zionists, and Bush, believe anything like real Christianity. There is very little evidence to show that Christian Zionists are all that different from Christians.
Suppose we had a division in the Boy Scouts. One large group of them believed that they should help little old ladies across the street, but that Boy Scout values were best exemplified by Adolf Hitler. The other group also helped old ladies across the street, but disagreed about how Hitler should be the model for Scouting. The fact that a large group of Boy Scouts admired Hitler doesn't make them any less Boy Scouts.
The fact that some Christians believe Jesus demands they evangalize the world by force does not make them any less Christians.
Even if We were to establish that Christian Zionists were not really Christians to our satisfaction, that is, we were lead to believe it, this would not help us prevent or stop the wars that Bush and the Christian Zionists, on my theory, are promoting. My argument is not just to convince those of us who read this blog that Bush is a so and so. The point of our arguments should be that if we made them to Bush and the Christian Zionists we could convince them that what they are doing is wrong. They should stop because of our arguments.
Erlenda can argue to us that Bush and the Christian Zionists are not really Christians, but she should make that argument so that it persuades Bush, not just us.
The second idea was that these wars are not really about religion because religion is just a story given to the easily duped. The real reasons for these wars has to do with greed.
So, Whitewraithe said,
"The religion issue is an elaborate smokescreen used to corral all the non-suspecting sheople, which I now refer to as "sleeple". Bush and his lackeys are no more Christian than Billy Graham is...
I believe it's still about power, control, domination, and OIL under a one world government system using religion, whether it's Christianity or Judaism, to enslave us."
I take it that Whitewraithe supposes that behind the policies of the Bush administration are powerful people who have the idea they need to obtain power, control, and so forth, and are in a position to use not only the apparatus of the United States government, but also the institutions of the Christian and Jewish religions to those ends.
If this is what he's claiming, I need to see some evidence from Whitewraithe.
I am not completely incredulous about what whitewraithe has to say. I would look to another way of putting it, however. I would say that most people believe that when one's survival is on the line, you best rely on force. There is also the idea that we just about always face questions of survival, and so we are always obligated to use force in one way or another, either by using violence, or stealth, or deception, the use of fear, or of intimidation. Given this kind of world, then it would make sense that there would be people who have accumulated so much power, i.e., the ability to control force, that they could manipulate the rest of us through the use of governments and religions.
The claim that I'm making would not be proven false by showing that there were no particular people who manipulated events from behind the curtains of secrecy. All one needs to show is that the way events occur is through the use of force.
I believe both Whitewraithe , erlenda, and the Christian Zionists believe this idea to be true. The Economic Elites that Whitewraithe rails against may not exist, but he believes they do because he believes that the world just works that way. Erlenda believes that Bush could not be a Christian because she understands Jesus to stand against the supposed fact that the world is ruled by violence, stealth, and deceit. The Christian Zionists also believe Jesus stands aginst a world run by force, and furthermore believe that he has charged Christians with cleaning up the mess, or in preparing the world for Jesus to clean it up.
How best should we understand the President? I have read about how the President is a deeply religious person. His life had been corrupted by drink, maybe by cocaine, and other "worldly" pollutants. This suggests to me that the Christian story about him has a lot of support.
I also know he has powerful friends in his father's circle and in the oil businesses that have supported his political career. This suggests that the man might just be a tool in the service of these economic elites.
I want to say that a more complete understanding of the claim that it's about power and control, and the story that it's about Christianity, would bring us to the conclusion that there is no real conflict between the two. Both believe that people rely on force to survive and that Christianity offers some kind of solution to the problems that people living in such a world face.
Perhaps Christian Zionists are Christians who acknowledge that in order for omelettes to be made, i.e., the work of their Lord to be done, they have to crack a few eggs, i.e., kill and steal from a few unbelievers for the greater good.
If you wanna know if somebody's a real son of a bitch........ just look at his mother.
"Perhaps Christian Zionists are Christians who acknowledge that in order for omelettes to be made, i.e., the work of their Lord to be done, they have to crack a few eggs, i.e., kill and steal from a few unbelievers for the greater good."
That would make them hypocrites, not Christians.
They can call themselves what they like - but their conduct speaks for itself.
We need to STOP him from killing more people with his reckless indifference to human life.
and you've badly missed the mark, Steven Andresen. If you read the words actually spoken by Christ, as recorded in the four gospels, you might realize that Bush cannot possibly be a Christian. Christ actually defined what His followers should be like:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the Children of God"
"They will know you are followers of Mine by your love"
How can a warmonger like George Bush be a Christian? It's an oxymoron!
Bush is partly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq and elsewhere, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people with permanent injuries, and disabilities such as blindness caused by explosions. He continues to cause great suffering in Iraq, and staunchly supports Israeli war crimes in Lebanon and Gaza. Jesus said to "beware of wolves in sheeps clothing, you'll know them by the fruits they bear."
An ideal Christian is someone like Mother Teresa who helps heal the sick and gives comfort to the suffering. People like Desmond Tutu, who has compassion for the oppressed, and Jimmy Carter, who tried to bring peace to the Middle East, are genuine Christians.